380 replies to this topic

[Ringwraith]

Shizukari, on 22 January 2014 - 02:37 AM, said:

Just you wait until Idea Factory acquires NIS and NISA.

Might be waiting for a looong while, as I'm fairly sure that's not going to happen.

[Shizukari]

Ringwraith, on 22 January 2014 - 04:42 AM, said:

Might be waiting for a looong while, as I'm fairly sure that's not going to happen.

Idea Factory already acquired the most important part of NIS: the Disgaea team.

[Ringwraith]

Shizukari, on 22 January 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

Idea Factory already acquired the most important part of NIS: the Disgaea team.

Not generally how 'acquired' is used in this context, but that doesn't mean they will buy out NISA.
If anything, all it implies is that NIS was considered a sinking ship by those employees, and that's pushing it a bit.

Edited by Ringwraith, 22 January 2014 - 05:19 AM.

[Shizukari]

The Disgaea team left NIS and joined Idea Factory, but if you're not familiar with the story, it involves NIS being a scummy company with labor laws, etc.


http://www.neogaf.co...ad.php?t=688013

[kknd]

Shizukari, on 22 January 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

The Disgaea team left NIS and joined Idea Factory, but if you're not familiar with the story, it involves NIS being a scummy company with labor laws, etc.


http://www.neogaf.co...ad.php?t=688013

wow, I'm surprised that it didn't affect the relationship between NIS, NISA and IF...

[TiamatNM]

huh interesting. that game they are teasing....is it that monster monpiece sequel of sorts that was announced recently? or something else?

[TiamatNM]

http://www.siliconer...-u-s-12-europe/

so the obvious question is, if you can give the game the ESRB rating you want, why not just leave all the stuff in and rate it M anyway?

[LeonTekashi]

I guess they were still worried and decided to be cautious with this.

[Amaterasu175]

TiamatNM, on 22 January 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:

http://www.siliconer...-u-s-12-europe/

so the obvious question is, if you can give the game the ESRB rating you want, why not just leave all the stuff in and rate it M anyway?

Yeah, it's just down to that kind of thing just being a bit more unacceptable in the US. Hell, if the game was uncensored, I probably wouldn't even consider buying it, as some of the cards that were censored kind of disgust me (in other words, the lolis, especially Goblin).

[MulderYuffie]

Veleskola, on 13 January 2014 - 12:36 PM, said:

Oh please stop bringing out Compile Heart games.... All they make is mediocrity and we miss out on much better games... (IMO)

I can't agree more. It irks me it really does when crap like this gets brought over but the Tales vita games don't LOL.

Edited by MulderYuffie, 22 January 2014 - 12:05 PM.

[LeonTekashi]

MulderYuffie, on 22 January 2014 - 12:04 PM, said:

I can't agree more. It irks me it really does when crap like this gets brought over but the Tales vita games don't LOL.

Now the Tales of Vita games is another story. Hideo Baba just needs to see more recognition for the Vita before he makes his move..That's what I'm thinking.

[MulderYuffie]

LeonTekashi, on 22 January 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Now the Tales of Vita games is another story. Hideo Baba just needs to see more recognition for the Vita before he makes his move..That's what I'm thinking.

I know I just mean if something REALLY niche like this can come over so can the Tales games. I just hope after this next PS3 title they do they'll work awhile on a PS4 title so we can catch up and release the Vita games over here in the meantime.

[LeonTekashi]

I'm sure we all want some good Tales games. Only time will tell. =)

[Shizukari]

TiamatNM, on 22 January 2014 - 10:02 AM, said:

huh interesting. that game they are teasing....is it that monster monpiece sequel of sorts that was announced recently? or something else?

Something else, still in development.

[TiamatNM]

Shizukari, on 22 January 2014 - 02:46 PM, said:

Something else, still in development.

that's good....but I'm worried about anything that comes out of IFI getting censored now. Some of the images they removed don't look any worse than something you'd see in a neptunia title. >_> Like Uni's transformed costume in mk2 for example.

Edited by TiamatNM, 22 January 2014 - 02:51 PM.

[Shizukari]

Come on, they just need to reel in on the fanservice.

[Ringwraith]

LeonTekashi, on 22 January 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

I'm sure we all want some good Tales games. Only time will tell. =)

Also, it's not like they're going to outsource the localisation of those games to anyone.
It's just not how those big companies operate.

So this game has no effect on it.

[LeonTekashi]

Well either way, what happened happened. Now we wait for the aftermath when it comes out.

[KlausRealta]

https://twitter.com/...6130944/photo/1

[Cqef]

Yep:


*reads*

[Ryos]

KlausRealta, on 22 January 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

https://twitter.com/...6130944/photo/1

Not that that's going to quell the most vocal opposition to censorship, but that's pretty much exactly what I thought was the case in so many words. I kind of wish they delved into the potential legal implications as far as leaving the content uncensored in states with particularly stringent child porn laws but it is what it is.

The explanation doesn't explain why they left a couple of the sketchier images (including lolis!) untouched though.

Edit: I will say that the very long NeoGAF thread on this pretty much confirms why the censorship had to happen in the localization even though ultimately, I also agree that the niche audience that this title might appeal to is going to be less interested in buying it due to the changes.

Edited by Ryos, 22 January 2014 - 04:54 PM.

[Shizukari]

Interesting.

[Amaterasu175]

KlausRealta, on 22 January 2014 - 04:43 PM, said:

https://twitter.com/...6130944/photo/1

Now why can't people understand this? All you're doing by making a fuss about it is making IFI feel bad, and giving yourself a rather... sketchy image, for lack of a better term.

[LeonTekashi]

Because people will find ways to complain and whine. It's pretty sad at this point...

[Savin877]

Amaterasu175, on 22 January 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

Now why can't people understand this? All you're doing by making a fuss about it is making IFI feel bad, and giving yourself a rather... sketchy image, for lack of a better term.

Because let's not beat around the bush. This game was made to incite specific feelings of pleasure to the male (or female if you like it) audience while playing the game. That audience I would HIGHLY wager (but cannot confirm) makes up 90% of it's potential market.

Alienate that, and you have a terrible first localization job.

[TiamatNM]

LeonTekashi, on 22 January 2014 - 05:13 PM, said:

Because people will find ways to complain and whine. It's pretty sad at this point...

Censorship is what is really sad. At least IFI was honest about it though.

[LeonTekashi]

I will admit that I feel bad that whenever censorship is called for, the companies have to deal with this kind of backlash, especially those niche ones like IFI...Poor IF. *pats*

Edited by LeonTekashi, 22 January 2014 - 05:32 PM.

[Amaterasu175]

Savin877, on 22 January 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

Because let's not beat around the bush. This game was made to incite specific feelings of pleasure to the male (or female if you like it) audience while playing the game. That audience I would HIGHLY wager (but cannot confirm) makes up 90% of it's potential market.

Alienate that, and you have a terrible first localization job.

While Monster Monpiece is a terrible first game for IFI to localize, it doesn't mean that people can get a free pass when it comes to complaining about it being censored, at least now that we know the specifics of it. Before, when we weren't exactly sure of what was being censored, and we thought the cards themselves were being removed from the game, then that complaining was more justified, since content was being removed from the game. Content that could drastically affect the game's balance. But now that we know that they're just removing the images of younger girls showing a crapton of skin, then all you're complaining about is not being able to see sexualized young girls. So if the game bombs for them, oh well. That's what you get when your first localization is a game like this.

I'm probably sounding harsh, but frankly, it annoys me when people are complaining about lolis who aren't exactly clothed very well are removed from a game. The removal of such things is to be expected, really. Like I said, it's an absolutely terrible first game to localize, but that shouldn't be a free pass for people to complain.

[Savin877]

Amaterasu175, on 22 January 2014 - 05:40 PM, said:

While Monster Monpiece is a terrible first game for IFI to localize, it doesn't mean that people can get a free pass when it comes to complaining about it being censored, at least now that we know the specifics of it. Before, when we weren't exactly sure of what was being censored, and we thought the cards themselves were being removed from the game, then that complaining was more justified, since content was being removed from the game. Content that could drastically affect the game's balance. But now that we know that they're just removing the images of younger girls showing a crapton of skin, then all you're complaining about is not being able to see sexualized young girls. So if the game bombs for them, oh well. That's what you get when your first localization is a game like this.

I'm probably sounding harsh, but frankly, it annoys me when people are complaining about lolis who aren't exactly clothed very well are removed from a game. The removal of such things is to be expected, really. Like I said, it's an absolutely terrible first game to localize, but that shouldn't be a free pass for people to complain.

You do realize that argument holds no water due to big-breasted women being censored in the game as well right? It's because of this that people were crying foul that the selection and censorship decision made no sense. I do agree with it being a terrible first game for them to localize, and this decision has only hurt them more.

And as far as the whole semantic argument about ethics, eroticism, fantasy, etc, the whole thing is moot because at the end of the day they are trying to earn money from this endeavor. However, by making this business decision they have removed a good (although not all) chunk of their intended market (the people who just wanted to be titillated). Who knows, I could be wrong. I guess we can wait a couple months from now and see how it all turns out.

Cheers.

[Amaterasu175]

Savin877, on 22 January 2014 - 06:35 PM, said:

You do realize that argument holds no water due to big-breasted women being censored in the game as well right? It's because of this that people were crying foul that the selection and censorship decision made no sense. I do agree with it being a terrible first game for them to localize, and this decision has only hurt them more.

And as far as the whole semantic argument about ethics, eroticism, fantasy, etc, the whole thing is moot because at the end of the day they are trying to earn money from this endeavor. However, by making this business decision they have removed a good (although not all) chunk of their intended market (the people who just wanted to be titillated). Who knows, I could be wrong. I guess we can wait a couple months from now and see how it all turns out.

Cheers.

There's only one, maybe two females with big breasts that got censored. Out of seventeen. So that argument is still mostly valid, actually. The point is, a majority of the girls that were censored were lolis, and that's all that matters. If there's enough negative controversy about the heavy sexualization of obviously underage girls, then perhaps things will get uglier then they already are.

And they're doing a crap job at trying to earn money, then. Localizing a game that features heavy sexualization of young girls (in the US, at least; can't speak for Europe) pretty much guarantees censorship of said sexualization. While sex sells, if it's the only reason you're buying a video game (can't speak about H games, however), then that just seems like a waste of money. You want titillation? The internet can do that for you, and for less money than a game.

[TiamatNM]

The problem is that even the cut content is, at least in my enlightened opinion ( ), not worthy of AO. If it's ok in japan why can't it be ok here? It's silly. If you compare this to an ACTUAL H game you'd see that it really doesn't make sense to give this game an AO. There are pretty clear differences.

and I support the right of consumers to complain about whatever the hell they want. whether they buy or not is their choice as well.

Edited by TiamatNM, 22 January 2014 - 07:26 PM.

[Savin877]

Amaterasu175, on 22 January 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

And they're doing a crap job at trying to earn money, then. Localizing a game that features heavy sexualization of young girls (in the US, at least; can't speak for Europe) pretty much guarantees censorship of said sexualization.

Which is why we both agreed that it was a terrible title to bring over as a first job silly. They shot themselves in the foot not only once but twice, and I think it's going to be tough for them to succeed. I never wish ill-will on any company, but I *personally* don't think their methods in this matter were the correct course of action to take. Time will tell; it always does.

[Ryos]

TiamatNM, on 22 January 2014 - 07:25 PM, said:

If it's ok in japan why can't it be ok here?

That logic doesn't work a lot of the time. I hate to go back to Mugen Souls but that censored content is more or less kosher in Japan (why would it not when public bathing had been part of the culture for so long?), whereas that can be construed as promoting child porn in the US. The context doesn't matter but the appearance does. Did you know that depending on the circumstances, if you're under 18 and send a nude picture of yourself, you could be prosecuted for distributing child porn and charged as a sex offender? Laws like that for the protection of minors ensure that there's no guarantee that what works in Japan would work elsewhere, even if you personally aren't offended by whatever's been censored for whatever reason.

Edited by Ryos, 22 January 2014 - 07:48 PM.

[TiamatNM]

I actually did know about that, it's kinda funny.

loli stuff is under a lot of pressure in japan as well but I think you have a point about the bathing thing since that's a cultural difference

[SquatDingloid]

Yeah I remember when Disney took out the bath scene in Totoro, because I knew I had seen it like a decade earlier in the Fox release. It's a weird cultural thing and entirely innocent scene but they didn't want to take any chances (especially legally) and hey I completely get that

[LeonTekashi]

Really? I haven't noticed that when I watched it on TV. Man, I'm glad I watched the Fox release multiple times. =)

[Terrozoz]

Totoro was definitely more innocent, though

Know what stinks though? I remember back in the 90's America's Funniest Home Videos could show babies doing silly things, and ya know, some were naked. But they're just babies doing cute things! Oh well, that all got censored later :/ For some reason, the fact that we have to actually censor a baby's parts is more gross :/ That's just the world we live in right now...

[TiamatNM]

didn't they show Zatch Bell's wang in that anime even though they censored the guns and bullets by making them green?

Edited by TiamatNM, 22 January 2014 - 08:32 PM.

[Amaterasu175]

Well, it is still nudity... But I think I get your point.

[SquatDingloid]

TiamatNM, on 22 January 2014 - 08:32 PM, said:

didn't they show Zatch Bell's wang in that anime even though they censored the guns and bullets by making them green?

Hahaha what the heck

[LeonTekashi]

It goes to show you how much this world is changing and what problems we're facing in today's society, but lets digress, shall we?

[Ringwraith]

Shizukari, on 22 January 2014 - 05:37 AM, said:

The Disgaea team left NIS and joined Idea Factory, but if you're not familiar with the story, it involves NIS being a scummy company with labor laws, etc.

Misses this reply earlier (I swear the large post-per-page counts are my undoing), I did hear about that, but is no indication of one company buying out the other in the future.
It's employees which were unhappy with how they were being treated so they left to go to another company. It doesn't really involve any upper management at all, in fact.

[Ryos]

Well, if I had ANY interest in the game, the Kotaku piece pretty much eradicated it:

http://kotaku.com/th...ward-1508631030

[TiamatNM]

It does sound like it would get annoying having to do the rubbing thing a lot. even in Senran Kagura the fanservice intrudes on the gameplay to some extent cause when the clothing explodes it messes up your air combos when I think about Monster Monpiece having like 300 cards with multiple levels each I start thinking man....that's got to be a lot of rubbing...

[Savin877]

Ryos, on 24 January 2014 - 08:27 PM, said:

Well, if I had ANY interest in the game, the Kotaku piece pretty much eradicated it:

http://kotaku.com/th...ward-1508631030

Yeah I think its a lose-lose situation in cases like this. You've got your "primary" fanbase who has now been completely alienated and feels like the just got a swift kick in the pants, then you have the "Cmon guys support localization" crowd whose pleas fall on deaf ears because the "primary" market isn't listening. And then you have IF at the other end who knows they are cutting out a good chunk of change but are praying to God a miracle comes through.

Common sense dictates there are always winners and losers, but it sure is nice when all parties can walk away with something and everyone is happy.

[Wyrdwad]

Amaterasu175, on 22 January 2014 - 04:55 PM, said:

Now why can't people understand this? All you're doing by making a fuss about it is making IFI feel bad, and giving yourself a rather... sketchy image, for lack of a better term.

Ahem! Do I have a sketchy image, then?

Note that this is all me talking -- I do not represent XSEED as a whole here.

Just wanted to chime in to say that I am 100% opposed to IFI's decision to censor this game, and if I had any interest in buying it before, I definitely wouldn't now. In my opinion, censorship is the single biggest problem afflicting the video game industry today, and while it's easy to say "oh, it's lolis, so it's no big deal," the problem with that is... well, it sets a precedent. To quote myself from the Hardcore Gaming 101 forums:

I've seen first-hand how casually people bring up the concept of censoring Japanese games. And not just from us with Senran Kagura, but from other companies we've spoken with as well -- management types look at a game with risque elements, and I swear the first words out of their mouths are, "How can we censor this to make it more palatable to a larger audience?"

When I've argued in favor of NOT censoring games with these types of people, their defense is usually, "Well, X game did it, so it's not like there's no precedent!" Upon suggesting we not remove the ages from Senran Kagura Burst, for example, I was immediately accosted with statements such as, "Well, Otomedius did it!" I even heard some people say things like, "Well, Mugen Souls had much worse censorship than that, so it's not like we're going too far or anything."

The more examples of this that the industry provides -- the more options we give management types to use for filling the blanks in statements like, "Well, ____ did it!" or, "Well, ____ had worse censorship than that!" -- the harder it will be to convince anyone to leave games intact in the future. No one wants to be the first person ever to censor a game in a specific manner, but if someone else has done it before, or if someone has done something even worse, the floodgates are open. And the more often people do it, the wider those floodgates get, until that form of censorship becomes so commonplace as to be expected. And once that happens, it could take years to undo the damage -- if it can even be undone at all!

Censorship laws are the biggest problems out there, but to me, it's a worse personal offense for a company to voluntary censor something. Obeying an unjust law is one thing, but going above and beyond that law just... seems akin to being a scab during a strike or something. It's just plain uncool, and really does create a culture of censorship. Anytime something like that becomes normalized, the art suffers.

If we don't want to see something we really care about get censored in the future, we need to make sure we stick up for the things we DON'T care about (or even actively want to SEE censored) now. Any censorship, big or small, inexplicable or requested, creates a very, very dangerous slope.

And in cases like this, there's simply no excuse to have censored anything. I can tell you right now, the censored images would not have boosted the ESRB rating beyond an M, and only *possibly* would've boosted the PEGI rating to a 16 instead of a 12. But if there were any concerns... no problem! The ESRB and PEGI alike are totally cool with publishers emailing them about concerns like this. IFI could've easily emailed them all the cut pictures and asked them, "Would these put our game at risk of being unclassified or receiving too high a rating to be marketed?" And if either ratings board said yes, THEN they could've censored the images and told people, "ESRB/PEGI indicated that the game would likely be unsalable if these images were to remain, so we decided to remove them in favor of reaching a wider audience."

Instead, IFI chose to voluntary censor the images based on marketing concerns based on personal moral judgments. And that, to me, is not something a purveyor of art should do. It may make sense from a business standpoint, and even from a moral standpoint... but in my opinion, it does not make sense from an ethical standpoint.

Once again, though, this is just my opinion -- and once again, it's an opinion not shared by my coworkers and not representational of XSEED's stance as a whole, so please don't think I speak for the company here. But I do feel that this is a much bigger issue, at its core, than simply "IFI censored some mostly-naked lolis and now pervs are angry at them for it." And I do feel it's an issue that needs to be looked at from a distance. Whether you approve of Monster Monpiece's depiction of women or lolis, that's part of the game, and IFI signed up to publish the game. They knew what they were getting into, and they should've stuck to their guns. Maybe they'd get some negative backlash... but let's face it, they're going to get negative backlash anyway by virtue of the game being what it is. At least if they left it uncensored, they'd have a leg to stand on in defending themselves.

-Tom

[SquatDingloid]

lol

[TiamatNM]

Tom is completely right!

[Terrozoz]

Censorship is like a rollercoaster ride. When one thing goes away/loosened up, another issue (loli trend) pops up and has to (frustratingly) get dealt with. Still sad that in a Square game this year, they have to cover up bikinis >_> Things like that feel like the 90's Final Fantasy games' censorship never progressed :/ Nintendo are pretty bad too in almost every game with taking out girls showing too much skin, and ANY kind of religious reference. I'm surprised sometimes that people never give them flack Maybe because it goes unnoticed? Can't say that it's because they are "for kids" is a good excuse, or anything/

[Amaterasu175]

Wyrdwad, on 24 January 2014 - 11:27 PM, said:

And in cases like this, there's simply no excuse to have censored anything. I can tell you right now, the censored images would not have boosted the ESRB rating beyond an M, and only *possibly* would've boosted the PEGI rating to a 16 instead of a 12. But if there were any concerns... no problem! The ESRB and PEGI alike are totally cool with publishers emailing them about concerns like this. IFI could've easily emailed them all the cut pictures and asked them, "Would these put our game at risk of being unclassified or receiving too high a rating to be marketed?" And if either ratings board said yes, THEN they could've censored the images and told people, "ESRB/PEGI indicated that the game would likely be unsalable if these images were to remain, so we decided to remove them in favor of reaching a wider audience."

Well, they say you learn something new every day, and this is that something. And I'm actually kinda pissed at IFI now for not doing that, since this whole thing could have been prevented if they had actually done that.

Quote

Ahem! Do I have a sketchy image, then?

I realize you're just kidding around with this part, but to further clarify, that post of mine that you quoted... The "sketchy image" bit is a combination of my pessimism, and... Well, from my (rather limited, probably) experiences, it seems several people are pessimistic too, especially with... controversial things. So it was meant as a "people will probably identify those who hate the censorship in this game as lolicons/pedophiles", but I know there are people who hate censorship as a whole (such as you, and myself).

And yes, I must agree with your post quite a bit, Tom. And hopefully all of this censorship damage can be undone some day (although perhaps that's just me being oddly optimistic).